Exploring Business Challenges and Family Legacies with Ted Fox
Send us a textDiscover the inspiring journey of Ted Fox, the dynamic force behind EL Fox Sons Plumbing Heating Limited, as he shares his story of transformation from a humble plumbing apprentice to the leader of a thriving home services enterprise. In this episode, Ted opens up about the unique challenges of expanding a business in a small market and the delicate balance of setting fair prices that support both his employees and customers. Listeners will gain insights into Ted’s commitment to...
Discover the inspiring journey of Ted Fox, the dynamic force behind EL Fox Sons Plumbing Heating Limited, as he shares his story of transformation from a humble plumbing apprentice to the leader of a thriving home services enterprise. In this episode, Ted opens up about the unique challenges of expanding a business in a small market and the delicate balance of setting fair prices that support both his employees and customers. Listeners will gain insights into Ted’s commitment to providing tradespeople with the opportunity to achieve financial stability and the truth behind the misconception that business owners simply accumulate wealth.
We explore the intricate dance of managing family dynamics within a business environment and the pivotal role of core values in maintaining a positive company culture. Ted candidly reflects on the trials and triumphs of working alongside family members, sharing practical advice on separating personal issues from professional responsibilities. Delve into the strategies for scaling a business smoothly, from navigating financial hurdles to embracing innovative growth methods that emphasize sustainable success without relying on external funding.
Uncover the art of leveraging data-driven tools for effective employee management and retention, as Ted introduces us to WhoHire, a key asset in his hiring strategy. Emphasizing the importance of accountability, Ted discusses the concept of time theft and how clear communication and set boundaries can align team efforts. From training initiatives in the plumbing and HVAC industry to addressing imposter syndrome among younger technicians, Ted offers a wealth of knowledge and inspiration for those looking to grow in the trades industry. Join us in this engaging conversation that promises to spark new ideas and insights into the future of home services.
00:00:02.164 --> 00:00:04.027 Welcome to the Successful Life Podcast.
00:00:04.027 --> 00:00:05.669 I'm your host, Corey Barrier.
00:00:05.669 --> 00:00:07.394 I'm here with my man, Ted Fox.
00:00:07.394 --> 00:00:07.934 What's up, brother?
00:00:10.221 --> 00:00:12.446 You know what I am today.
00:00:12.989 --> 00:00:13.810 It's a good day.
00:00:13.810 --> 00:00:15.119 It's a good day.
00:00:15.119 --> 00:00:18.663 It's always a good day to have a good day, isn't it?
00:00:20.204 --> 00:00:33.313 Yeah, I went to a concert last night with my family just a Canadian band that anybody else in Canada probably wouldn't know, but it was awesome.
00:00:33.313 --> 00:00:37.956 We stayed up late and rocked out and then got up early this morning to get back at it.
00:00:37.956 --> 00:00:40.057 So I'm feeling pretty jazzed.
00:00:40.758 --> 00:00:41.018 Love it.
00:00:41.018 --> 00:00:46.701 I saw a guy.
00:00:46.701 --> 00:00:50.156 I wish I could remember his name, name and I'm probably just absolutely not gonna remember it, but you would definitely probably know this person.
00:00:50.156 --> 00:00:55.281 Anyhow, it doesn't really matter because I don't remember his name, but I got to see him live and he was really good, but anyway.
00:00:55.281 --> 00:00:56.404 So who did you go see?
00:00:56.723 --> 00:01:01.012 just curious we went to see a band called the arkells.
00:01:01.012 --> 00:01:05.588 Okay, yeah, they're kind of I'd like, I'd say they're like the Killers.
00:01:05.588 --> 00:01:12.048 They're kind of like the Killers, very similar to that, like the Killers mixed with Dave Matthews Band.
00:01:12.048 --> 00:01:15.650 They really they brought down the house.
00:01:15.650 --> 00:01:16.132 It was great.
00:01:16.132 --> 00:01:17.075 I love it.
00:01:17.075 --> 00:01:17.316 Good show.
00:01:18.260 --> 00:01:22.727 Yeah, I love going to live shows, especially if it's somebody that I really enjoy.
00:01:22.727 --> 00:01:26.894 I don't go typically if it's somebody that I'm half in half out on.
00:01:26.894 --> 00:01:30.745 Yeah.
00:01:30.745 --> 00:01:37.724 So, ted, just for people that may or may not know who you are, just give us a little bit of background about who you are and what you've done in the home services space.
00:01:39.890 --> 00:01:45.748 All right, I don't know, sometimes it doesn't feel like much much and sometimes it feels like a lot.
00:01:45.748 --> 00:02:18.780 So I got into the trades in 1996, as I went into a plumbing apprenticeship and both my dad and my older brother were plumbers and I didn't really want to be a plumber, I wanted to be a teacher, like a drama teacher or something like that, and but I went and went into plumbing so that I could attend university with my girlfriend at the time and so, anyway, got into that, got into plumbing, and I haven't looked back since.
00:02:18.780 --> 00:02:48.818 In 1999, my dad and I started up a company called EL Fox Sons Plumbing Heating Limited and, anyways, with hopes that my brothers would join the company, we called it EL Fox Sons after my dad and none of my brothers did end up joining, and so my dad and I worked together just the two of us with the occasional helper until around 2012.
00:02:48.818 --> 00:03:03.652 In 2012 I purchased the final, like the remaining shares from my dad and and then my wife and I started to look at growing the business.
00:03:03.652 --> 00:03:18.170 So it was bigger, like bigger than just me out in the field and her in the office, because it takes a lot of time when you're the only person there answering the phones and things, and if only I knew how much more time it takes later after you've grown.
00:03:18.170 --> 00:03:31.569 But since then we're happy to say that we've grown to about 100 staff, 100 employees, and we've expanded.
00:03:31.699 --> 00:03:42.354 We do plumbing, heating, cooling and electrical now, which is pretty awesome, and we've done that in a very small market by most people's standards.
00:03:42.881 --> 00:03:45.366 So a little toot of the horn here.
00:03:45.366 --> 00:03:56.463 We serve a total between all the communities that we service of about 170 000 people and and so to be able to grow to where we were like hey, this is pretty great.
00:03:56.463 --> 00:04:05.512 So that's us in a nutshell, that the big stuff with our company is we just we really wanted, like the why changes over time.
00:04:05.512 --> 00:04:07.788 My why originally was I wanted to take a holiday.
00:04:07.788 --> 00:04:46.779 My why now is more like changing the industry, but in a way of allowing young families to essentially stay in these expensive markets and get a house and be able to raise a family, get a house and be able to raise a family, and I just know that if that's my focus, then the company will thrive and our customers will do well, and all that by being able to create these careers that allow I shouldn't just say young people, but essentially trades people to stay and not have to move with the crazy cost of living that there are out there the living that there are out there.
00:04:51.339 --> 00:04:58.293 So how does that make you feel that you're able to provide homes for people and paychecks that'll cover the expenses or maybe more than cover the expenses of daily living.
00:04:58.293 --> 00:05:00.968 That must make you feel pretty good.
00:05:04.684 --> 00:05:07.461 Yeah, I think everything has a tinge of selfishness in it.
00:05:07.461 --> 00:05:08.201 It does like it's.
00:05:08.201 --> 00:05:10.185 Sometimes.
00:05:10.185 --> 00:05:22.062 You have to, you really have to dig through the weeds to find that, to make sure you hold on to that positive, that positive goal that you're searching for, that, that that thing.
00:05:22.062 --> 00:05:27.468 Because whenever you I don't know who, I don't know your listener base and that's fantastic.
00:05:27.468 --> 00:05:37.353 But if I'm talking to business owners, they would understand that everybody around you thinks that you're hiding secret bags of money in your drawers.
00:05:37.353 --> 00:05:39.605 Right, they, they have that feeling.
00:05:39.605 --> 00:05:48.252 And hey, maybe there are some business owners out there who have figured that out and they got these secret bags of money that they're just squirreling away in the fenders of their car.
00:05:49.761 --> 00:06:05.805 But most that I know, and I know quite a few make a good living and they look after their family but have a real nurturing need to grow and keep the company healthy and to keep the company healthy.
00:06:05.805 --> 00:06:07.180 Healthy you have to keep your employees healthy.
00:06:07.180 --> 00:06:12.380 So there's like this, it's like a symbiotic relationship of everybody, like we call it, a win win.
00:06:12.380 --> 00:06:15.329 Your customers have to be good, your employees have to be good, the company will be good.
00:06:15.329 --> 00:06:20.048 I will bring it up regularly.
00:06:20.250 --> 00:06:33.545 Hey, look at what we're able to provide young people, we're able to provide, and that comes at a, and the cost is you have to charge the right amount of money to be able to provide those things to your employees.
00:06:33.545 --> 00:06:41.031 And so you're always in this constant battle of why are we more money than this other competitor and how can they do it cheaper?
00:06:41.031 --> 00:06:48.565 They do it cheaper because they offer less, and it's not just that they offer less to the customer, but to the employees as well.
00:06:48.565 --> 00:07:13.211 And so, anyways, that's been a long battle, that's just, and you had, I guess you said have the feel I feel good that I've been stoic enough to keep that, keep that fight going in the steel skin against the negativity that comes with it, because the outcome is extremely positive for our community and the trades in general.
00:07:14.682 --> 00:07:15.446 That makes sense.
00:07:15.446 --> 00:07:21.213 It is, and there are a lot of business owners that listen to this show.
00:07:21.213 --> 00:07:25.505 There are also a lot of people in the field and I think it's important.
00:07:25.505 --> 00:07:45.449 What you brought up is important because I think a lot of business owners don't explain that to their employees that you've got nice uniforms and you've got nice vans and you've got nice iPads and all those things come at a price and that's why you have to charge what you charge.
00:07:45.449 --> 00:07:58.331 Like you said, you're not ripping the customer off and you're sitting somewhere with a gazillion dollars in the bank while you're screwing everybody and again, there could be some people out there that are doing that, who knows.
00:07:58.560 --> 00:08:25.173 But at the end of the day, I believe that a service technician would much rather show up at a home in a nice van with a nice uniform on and with equipment like an iPad that works, it's not busted into a thousand pieces or works some of the time, that just makes their life significantly easier.
00:08:25.300 --> 00:08:40.673 I think it's just perspective and if you can explain that to the employees and get them I wouldn't even say bought into it, because they don't really need to buy into having a better place to work and to be able to function better.
00:08:40.673 --> 00:08:45.028 But a lot of times I know that you are up against.
00:08:45.028 --> 00:08:46.511 Why do we charge more?
00:08:46.511 --> 00:08:53.643 And if you explain that to the employees, I'm not saying you have to show them your whole balance sheet.
00:08:53.643 --> 00:09:14.363 But at the end of the day a lot of guys don't understand that when they have to, when you guys have a recall that costs the company three, four, sometimes $500 to ship that van out for a second time Heaven forbid it be a third or a fourth and a lot of guys just don't really understand that.
00:09:14.363 --> 00:09:16.488 They think it's just the gas to go out there.
00:09:16.488 --> 00:09:26.643 But they're missing the boat on all the other costs that are incurred with that second, third or fourth trip that are incurred with that second, third or fourth trip?
00:09:26.663 --> 00:09:27.443 Yeah, absolutely.
00:09:27.443 --> 00:09:34.533 That's why I think it's so important that it's not a worry, that for the text, that it's not something they need to worry about.
00:09:34.533 --> 00:09:35.836 My books are always open.
00:09:35.836 --> 00:09:39.081 My people can look at them anytime they want.
00:09:39.081 --> 00:09:44.150 But I just think I stopped trying to convince people of it.
00:09:44.150 --> 00:10:07.283 I stopped trying to convince people of it Like we, we definitely have what would you call it, not projects, but we have like a work, a work group, or we'll get together and we'll do a project together, like in a classroom project, and work on costings and things like that, so to give people an idea where the prices come from.
00:10:08.285 --> 00:10:25.711 But generally it's uh, I try not to give it too much attention because I think even if it's all laid out and all explained, like even a lot of business owners and a lot of they don't fully grasp it takes a long time.
00:10:25.711 --> 00:10:26.513 It's a whole nother.
00:10:26.513 --> 00:10:36.190 It took me years to figure out my p and l properly and do those things right and at the end of the day you're you know you're trying to hit a 10 profit, 15 profit.
00:10:36.190 --> 00:10:37.072 Wouldn't that be amazing?
00:10:37.072 --> 00:10:38.081 That's what you're trying to hit.
00:10:38.081 --> 00:10:38.783 So you're not talking.
00:10:38.783 --> 00:10:51.711 You're not talking huge margins here, but so if you can just really focus on now what is that value we're bringing to the customer and what's the value we're bringing to our people.
00:10:51.711 --> 00:10:53.563 What is the what are those values at?
00:10:53.563 --> 00:10:58.107 And if you make sure those are, those are higher than everybody else, then it doesn't.
00:10:58.107 --> 00:11:09.207 Then the pricing makes sense, right, like you can only afford to charge more if you're better, if you shouldn't say if you're better, but if you provide a higher value and yeah, so that's been.
00:11:10.620 --> 00:11:13.028 The original question was like how does it make you feel?
00:11:13.028 --> 00:11:14.500 It makes me feel really good Even.
00:11:14.500 --> 00:11:15.787 I think it was two nights ago.
00:11:15.787 --> 00:11:46.140 I was sitting with my family and we were talking about this is awesome, because we were talking about a young I would say young, but a young guy that works for us, who was just able to get his mortgage on his first house, and it wasn't very many years ago that we're in this little pocket town, but we're well five-hour drive from Vancouver Vancouver's one of the highest cost of living places to purchase in the world, apparently, and the overflow from that is where we are.
00:11:46.140 --> 00:11:48.366 So our housing prices and stuff are.
00:11:48.366 --> 00:12:00.647 They've gone up crazily to a point where the the conversation in the area was like young people, they will not be able to afford this unless they can right, so that's what we're working on, yeah.
00:12:01.427 --> 00:12:02.568 Yeah, that makes sense.
00:12:02.568 --> 00:12:03.931 So, how do you?
00:12:03.931 --> 00:12:21.342 One of the things I think is vital and for you to have a hundred people inside of the company, that means that the culture in the company has got to be pretty solid, because people don't hang out for very long in a company that has a not a very good culture.
00:12:21.342 --> 00:12:31.812 So how do you, how do you cultivate that inside of your company and keep that a positive thing where people want to come and work there?
00:12:34.061 --> 00:12:34.981 It's a great question.
00:12:34.981 --> 00:12:51.068 We and I don't want to say I'm my worst critic, but I probably am like so culture is something that always feel isn't good enough or isn't great or what, but, to your point, it has to be decent for growth, like it has to.
00:12:51.068 --> 00:12:56.424 And culture is who you are right it's, it's who you are and how you show up.
00:12:56.424 --> 00:13:03.947 I would say the nicest way that, or the best way that we cultivate it, was creating our core values, which I highly recommend everybody to have.
00:13:03.947 --> 00:13:07.595 But more important than creating them is living to them.
00:13:07.595 --> 00:13:23.889 And I would say that the regular conversation I would have with my staff and my team members is for them to utilize those core values as a shield against negativity.
00:13:24.480 --> 00:13:37.366 So I won't bore you with our core values, but when I hear somebody's having trouble with a person or with an item or with something, I'm like listen, everything we do hangs out within our core values and within our code of ethics.
00:13:37.366 --> 00:13:43.326 But if you just take those core values and something's outside, you need to hold that value and be like hey, we're not hitting this.
00:13:43.326 --> 00:13:45.624 This is not a positive attitude thing.
00:13:45.624 --> 00:13:46.044 And're not.
00:13:46.044 --> 00:13:49.721 And I said, and we will all follow suit and recognize that and jump on board.
00:13:49.721 --> 00:14:00.144 Same with if you're seeing some something maybe there's a somebody's grumpy in the parking lot best thing you can possibly do is let them know.
00:14:01.967 --> 00:14:04.511 Hey, this, I don't want to take part in your negativity today.
00:14:04.511 --> 00:14:11.309 You need to be solution-minded to work here, and that's how I come to work with people who are solution-minded.
00:14:11.309 --> 00:14:23.559 And by using it as a shield, you're not keeping people away, you're checking them, because we all bring our own stuff in, and so that's, I think, one of the best tools that I could give out to people.
00:14:23.559 --> 00:14:29.048 For culture is really, don't just make your values or your statement and stick it on the wall.
00:14:29.048 --> 00:14:34.847 Don't just get up in front of a group of people and spew it out there.
00:14:34.847 --> 00:14:38.419 Do those things, but as well, let people know how to use them.
00:14:38.419 --> 00:14:56.751 They are an actual tool and I'd say probably I would maybe the most important tool in your company, because it will make people feel safe to work for you, because they know what to expect every day that makes sense, yeah, and I love that and that that makes complete sense.
00:14:56.792 --> 00:15:23.070 so I want to ask you I know that I've worked with and I've consulted with a lot of companies where it's a family company father and son, maybe a brother, maybe more than that that dynamic is very different than it is with someone who doesn't have family involved, and so I'd like for you to talk to me about.
00:15:23.070 --> 00:15:31.196 I'm sure there have been times that things were not going super smooth.
00:15:31.196 --> 00:15:43.193 Okay, Tell me about one of those times where you know if a family business is listening, if a father or son or both are listening.
00:15:43.193 --> 00:15:48.306 What are some of the things that you had to overcome in that relationship and how did you keep that?
00:15:48.306 --> 00:15:56.424 How did you keep it separate from your relationship with your father, Because I'm sure that can be affected.
00:15:58.510 --> 00:15:58.792 You bet.
00:15:58.792 --> 00:16:07.246 So my dad and I because we were just the two of us, and then with a couple of the people in there we got along really well.
00:16:07.246 --> 00:16:10.785 We didn't have any drama.
00:16:10.785 --> 00:16:12.149 So I was very lucky that way.
00:16:12.149 --> 00:16:15.767 We each knew our roles.
00:16:15.767 --> 00:16:25.322 I was out getting the work done, he was a mentor and doing a lot of office, and then come out in the field so it was good, it worked well for a lot of office and then come out in the field.
00:16:25.322 --> 00:16:28.567 It was so it was good, it worked well for a lot of years.
00:16:28.586 --> 00:16:47.416 Um, but later on what as I grew later like, my dad still worked for me for a while and he ended up having early onset alzheimer's and dementia and we found this out while he was at work and what I found is family, all family.
00:16:47.416 --> 00:17:07.259 So I've had I'm a person, I like to bring people together, I really like that, and so I have had my mom work for me, a sister work for me, a brother work for me, some of my kids, my wife, works with me like it's it's like family's in there.
00:17:07.259 --> 00:17:10.509 But the man, that is your problem.
00:17:10.509 --> 00:17:12.434 You can't make that your.
00:17:12.434 --> 00:17:16.688 You can't make your family drama ever overflow into the company that's.
00:17:18.493 --> 00:17:21.022 If you have family drama, it's got to stay out same with your.
00:17:21.022 --> 00:17:22.368 If you're working with your best friend well, you're going to have.
00:17:22.368 --> 00:17:23.070 It's just them, we'll just with you.
00:17:23.070 --> 00:17:38.587 If you're working with your best friend well and you're going, yeah, that's just them, we'll just, we're just going to work with them, even though they're a jerk, you know you have to protect your culture and that from that side of things, some like life lessons in this.
00:17:38.968 --> 00:17:46.470 In the businesses my, my brother came to work for me, one of my favorite people in the whole wide world.
00:17:46.470 --> 00:17:51.471 We worked together when we were younger on a big construction site.
00:17:51.471 --> 00:18:00.810 We worked for a year or two together, but it was like he did not belong with the company and the company did not belong with him.
00:18:00.810 --> 00:18:01.913 He came, he tried.
00:18:01.913 --> 00:18:07.584 It was an absolute not fit, not good for anybody and it had to end.
00:18:07.584 --> 00:18:11.289 And that was just like.
00:18:11.770 --> 00:18:13.794 You just have to be able to make those choices.
00:18:13.794 --> 00:18:18.300 You have to be able to recognize it and make those decisions based on the good of everybody that's there.
00:18:18.300 --> 00:18:21.509 So I would say that the family dynamics can be one way or the other.
00:18:21.509 --> 00:18:43.207 What I see more than anything with the companies that I speak to regularly is generally they let their family get away with murder or with more stuff and everybody in the company knows it, watches it, sees it happen and understands that it's happening and nobody's happy about it.
00:18:43.207 --> 00:18:53.631 So you can absolutely work really well with family, but you have to treat the families the same as everybody else there Really.
00:18:54.471 --> 00:18:56.414 Yeah, 100%.
00:18:56.414 --> 00:19:10.067 Sometimes I've met, I've worked with people before where they're that they're treated sometimes worse, and I think because they're trying to make sure that people understand that they're not getting special treatment.
00:19:11.500 --> 00:19:15.711 And that's the other thing is the yes, especially when the kids come to work.
00:19:15.711 --> 00:19:26.563 I see people that like where, yeah, they treat the kids, or whatever, like they're way harder on them than everybody else and they cause they have these expectations and so you, or whatever, like they're way harder on them than everybody else and they, because they have these expectations.
00:19:26.563 --> 00:19:29.469 And so you, I say you can absolutely navigate this.
00:19:29.469 --> 00:19:41.873 And the nice thing about having family, like the family that works for me, there's serious trust that goes beyond trust that you can just build in a working place depending.
00:19:41.873 --> 00:19:45.645 But we all have family, that we know that there's some family we trust and some family we don't trust.
00:19:46.067 --> 00:19:48.614 So it's it's you has to be a smart hiring thing.
00:19:48.614 --> 00:19:56.292 Your business is not a charity, it's a business, right, you have to make sure it's mutual and it's beneficial for everybody in it.
00:19:56.292 --> 00:20:05.615 And and generally, I've made sure that my, the family that I've hired in, report to a different manager.
00:20:05.615 --> 00:20:23.275 They don't report to me directly, they report to another manager and I still interact with them in that, but it's they have to stand on their own two feet and and also they need to be protected from me and my expectations of them as a brother, a father like I say.
00:20:23.275 --> 00:20:24.965 So yeah, it's a very good point.
00:20:31.535 --> 00:20:53.775 It's always an interesting dynamic, but it sounds like to me that your perspective is pretty solid, One of the most solid I've heard To grow from now, give me an idea of when your real growth started to happen, when you went from and I don't know the numbers, but let's say when a lot of people scale from 5 to 10 million.
00:20:53.775 --> 00:20:55.896 That's a tough road.
00:20:55.896 --> 00:20:58.065 10 to 20 million is also.
00:20:58.065 --> 00:21:00.511 It's just a very different ballgame.
00:21:00.511 --> 00:21:09.824 Ballgame and there's.
00:21:09.824 --> 00:21:14.939 I think, if you're like a normal business owner, there have been times where you weren't sure if you were even going to make payroll.
00:21:16.000 --> 00:21:17.605 Yeah, those are terrible times.
00:21:17.605 --> 00:21:22.826 I'm not laughing because I know there's probably a bunch of people out there struggling with that these days.
00:21:22.826 --> 00:21:26.724 Yeah, no, that's, that is something that's so.
00:21:26.724 --> 00:21:40.067 Hey, knock on wood, I have not missed payroll yet, but sometimes that's come at like some real creative thinking as to how do we not miss payroll right over over the years.
00:21:40.067 --> 00:21:44.330 So, scaling, yeah.
00:21:44.351 --> 00:21:56.231 So, as soon as I bought my dad out in 2012 the because he was anti-advertisement very much as we do word of mouth only, and that's it, and it was.
00:21:56.231 --> 00:22:03.970 We were in a 51 49 partnership, right, so he had 51, and if I wanted to advertise, he didn't.
00:22:03.970 --> 00:22:20.123 But the first thing I did is I put out an ad and we started making money, which was cool, cause, up to that point, we had never done more than about $300,000 in a year and we were always just breaking even and paying herself most of the time, but very low.
00:22:20.123 --> 00:22:24.232 And so, anyways, pretty quickly, we scaled up.
00:22:24.232 --> 00:22:27.467 And so, anyways, pretty quickly, we scaled up.
00:22:27.467 --> 00:22:35.692 I think I don't know, it took us a year so to break the, the million dollar mark, and then we've basically been growing at about 30, roughly 30 per year since then.
00:22:37.221 --> 00:22:59.384 I would say that super dangerous part for me for fox was was breaking the two to 4 million mark, because around that it's and I realized I'm old now, so inflation is different and everything but it seems to me that around if you're in a home services company, around that $2 million mark somewhere in there is where you've got to start hiring managers.
00:22:59.384 --> 00:23:09.871 It's right in there that you're probably got 10, 12 employees, 13 maybe, and you're like, okay, I need a field manager, I need this other manager.
00:23:09.871 --> 00:23:21.329 And for me the danger there was yeah, I got that, I got a good manager, but I didn't know how to cost properly and set my pricing right and figure those things out to make sure that.
00:23:21.329 --> 00:23:32.820 Because I just thought, if I pay him this amount of money, he's going to make me more than that by keeping people working like I was working and it doesn't generate that way.
00:23:32.820 --> 00:23:43.785 And I took a high performing technician who's making the dollars in the field and moved them into a management role, which then so you've taken it, you're taking positive and putting it into a cost.
00:23:43.785 --> 00:23:45.451 So those are.
00:23:45.451 --> 00:23:47.180 I know a lot of people.
00:23:47.180 --> 00:23:51.430 It's going to sound like what a dummy, but that was a lesson to learn that.
00:23:51.960 --> 00:23:53.804 And right in that area you're adding managers.
00:23:53.804 --> 00:24:00.713 Then I would say around man, around 12 or 13 million somewhere in there, if we're just talking dollars.
00:24:00.713 --> 00:24:13.719 Somewhere in that range you start adding your second layer of managers, where you have, like, your leadership team or your general managers, and then you've got managers that report to those managers.
00:24:13.719 --> 00:24:26.461 And so I'm not saying managers are the root of all evil, but when you are, I'm just going to say like non-educated, not that you need the education, but it's like when you don't know.
00:24:26.461 --> 00:24:38.859 Basically every day I come to work, I'm running a bigger company than I've ever run in my life, and so sometimes you'll scale, you're like I need this leader over here, but then seven or eight months later you realize that was the wrong move.
00:24:39.851 --> 00:24:58.663 So around that 12, 13, $14 million mark, somewhere in there, we added some secondary level of managers and once again, same kind of thing You're inflating your costs, your overhead inflates and your profits go down.
00:24:58.663 --> 00:25:03.184 Or your profits might not go down, but your overhead inflates and your net profit goes down.
00:25:03.184 --> 00:25:09.336 So yeah, then all of a sudden you're having trouble making payroll again, even though you've done, you're doing more work than you've ever done.
00:25:09.336 --> 00:25:12.480 You've got all this like amazing management out there.
00:25:12.480 --> 00:25:23.758 You're doing all your leadership training, doing all the things right, but it's you want your org chart to be a bit like a Christmas tree, right, like with your field staff here.
00:25:23.758 --> 00:25:35.732 But the idea is, if your field staff is too large for the management you have, then your field staff feel unsupported, so your technicians will feel like they don't have anybody to talk to.
00:25:35.732 --> 00:25:49.074 So if you hire managers out first and bail out your middle so that you've got lots of support for your field staff, then your profits go away and you can't make payroll maybe, or whatever you're going to do so.
00:25:49.074 --> 00:25:51.419 So there's this juggling act there.
00:25:51.439 --> 00:25:58.491 So, yeah, I would definitely caution people between when you're one to two million dollars.
00:25:58.491 --> 00:26:00.538 That's a healthy, that's's a healthy company.
00:26:00.538 --> 00:26:09.394 You're making good dough and I'm sure everybody who's there is running with they've got two, three, four techs with them and they're running around doing everything they're probably doing really well and I love that time.
00:26:09.394 --> 00:26:13.272 That was a great time and I'm not sorry that I didn't stay there.
00:26:13.272 --> 00:26:17.557 But when I see some people and they want to grow, I'm asking them what are you after really?
00:26:17.557 --> 00:26:31.621 Because, depending on what you're after, it doesn't get easier and you might not make more money, but you can do a whole lot of good in the industry if you want to do this Around that $10, $12 million mark, it's another crazy one.
00:26:31.621 --> 00:26:41.296 It's almost like every $5 million jump that you do and I believe personally it's a management process.
00:26:41.296 --> 00:26:50.326 That is the reason that the costing stuff gets crazy, because you have to reinvent your company again with management to cover that section.
00:26:52.211 --> 00:27:03.145 And so you mentioned making and I think anybody listening to this can identify with making a bad hire someone who you thought really was going to do a great job.
00:27:03.145 --> 00:27:11.048 How, at this point, hiring is a big problem I shouldn't say a big problem in the trades.
00:27:11.048 --> 00:27:23.739 Hiring is a big conversation in the trades because there's either not enough people or everybody sucks, or there's a whole list of things and I can get into why.
00:27:23.739 --> 00:27:30.757 I think people are saying that without calling out leadership or whatever.
00:27:30.757 --> 00:27:38.784 How do you now mitigate making some of those bad hiring decisions?
00:27:40.951 --> 00:27:43.220 Yeah, no, that's, that's cool.
00:27:43.220 --> 00:27:47.871 Hire slow and fire fast, right you like?
00:27:47.871 --> 00:27:53.083 Do more research more, get as much data as you can ahead of time, as much.
00:27:53.083 --> 00:27:56.039 And we still make bad choices because we all get desperate.
00:27:56.039 --> 00:27:57.614 You're like all, you're like man.
00:27:57.614 --> 00:27:59.560 We really need this person and this guy seems greater.
00:27:59.560 --> 00:28:00.634 That girl seems great.
00:28:00.634 --> 00:28:05.258 Let's go more data, is it okay?
00:28:05.258 --> 00:28:07.622 Can I talk about who hire for a second?
00:28:07.622 --> 00:28:10.192 Yeah, please, is it, do you mind?
00:28:10.192 --> 00:28:11.596 Okay, I think it's super relevant to the.
00:28:11.596 --> 00:28:14.450 It's obviously relevant to the hiring question, but I was.
00:28:17.015 --> 00:28:22.325 We had a manager, so we use whoire, maybe a little differently than most people.
00:28:22.325 --> 00:28:37.246 We're going to really get into a whole bunch of other things, but one thing we were using it for is building profiles on all of our people to figure out their flight risk, their happiness, all those things.
00:28:37.246 --> 00:28:38.695 We were looking at it and going okay.
00:28:38.695 --> 00:28:44.674 Now, from a promotion standpoint within the company, like who should we be working with?
00:28:44.674 --> 00:28:48.910 So, anyways, long story short, I'll get into here.
00:28:48.910 --> 00:28:53.078 There's a manager that we had on staff who checked everybody's boxes.
00:28:53.078 --> 00:28:55.104 We were like this guy.
00:28:55.104 --> 00:28:57.233 We all loved him and he's great hard worker.
00:28:57.233 --> 00:29:00.680 I was good, he's happy just nailing it.
00:29:01.842 --> 00:29:14.691 And my wife, sue, she's like very analytical with a lot of this stuff, and she kept coming because I'm like I'm gonna take this guy to this training, I'm gonna take him here, and she's I don't think you should be doing that.
00:29:14.691 --> 00:29:16.493 And it's like why?
00:29:16.493 --> 00:29:31.980 It's because, like our who I report shows that he's a flight risk and that he's unhappy, and I'm like there's no way though it's got it wrong, because we can't all be wrong, we can't.
00:29:31.980 --> 00:29:44.691 And so I was taking him, he was the person I was putting in and then, all of a sudden, all of a sudden, he turned in his notice and was like thanks very much, I'm heading to a different industry.
00:29:44.691 --> 00:29:50.242 And it was like, right after flying him out to a, to another city to go through.
00:29:50.282 --> 00:30:23.176 And so it was one of those moments where this hundred thousand dollar a year manager just dumping resources in because he's got all these skills and had been with us for he had also been with us for a while like this, he's been with us well over a year, and so that who hire had nailed it like it nailed it if I had just looked at what the data brought back to me on this person instead of what my gut and heart and you got to keep the humans in it, like we're.
00:30:23.176 --> 00:30:28.718 You and I are here having a conversation because there needs to be humans here, but don't ignore that data.
00:30:28.718 --> 00:30:35.122 So that's like when you ask about hiring and that, yeah, take all the data, you can look at it and utilize it.
00:30:35.122 --> 00:30:59.542 Because had I utilized the data that was right in front of me, that that we honestly paid to get, not only would I I don't even like I would have saved the money that I spent sending this fellow around and doing those things, but, more importantly than that, all of those resources would have gone to another more more deserving or more beneficial to the company person on staff rather than that person.
00:30:59.542 --> 00:31:03.676 Do I know if it'll always get it right?
00:31:03.676 --> 00:31:09.942 I don't know, but so far it's nailed it for our for that stuff.
00:31:11.473 --> 00:31:12.684 Sorry, shameless plug who hires?
00:31:12.684 --> 00:31:13.150 Pretty awesome.
00:31:13.529 --> 00:31:23.442 Well, it's interesting because one of the things that you're right the data is so dialed in and it's been.
00:31:23.442 --> 00:31:37.963 We've done so much research through the Nextar network and utilizing the companies in there and the employees that it is as accurate as anything that you're going to find more accurate in my opinion.
+(1400+x+1400+px)+(1400+x+1400+px)+-+1.PNG)