Navigating HVAC Transitions: Carl Ippoliti on Refrigerant Shifts, Sales Mastery, and Personal Growth
Send us a textCarl Ippoliti, a veteran of the HVAC industry with half a century of expertise, joins us to shed light on the complex refrigerant transitions looming in 2025. As the industry shifts from R410 to environmentally friendlier alternatives like R32 and R454, Carl unpacks the historical context and ramifications for both homeowners and contractors. Expect to gain a deeper understanding of the challenges this transition presents, including rising costs and the imperative need for techn...
Carl Ippoliti, a veteran of the HVAC industry with half a century of expertise, joins us to shed light on the complex refrigerant transitions looming in 2025. As the industry shifts from R410 to environmentally friendlier alternatives like R32 and R454, Carl unpacks the historical context and ramifications for both homeowners and contractors. Expect to gain a deeper understanding of the challenges this transition presents, including rising costs and the imperative need for technician training to safely handle these slightly flammable substances.
Ever wondered how identifying personality types can revolutionize your sales technique? Drawing insights from "Versatile Selling" by Wilson Learning, we explore how recognizing and adapting to different social styles can forge stronger, more trustworthy relationships. Whether dealing with analytical, amiable, driver, or expressive types, we discuss strategies that align with each, ensuring your approach resonates with your audience. Carl and I dissect the dynamics of selling and buying, offering practical advice on reading personality signals and adjusting your sales strategy accordingly.
As we navigate the intricacies of HVAC efficiency and the shifting landscape of gas standards, this episode also offers guidance on making informed investment decisions in HVAC systems. We highlight the significance of understanding long-term energy savings, rebates, and tax credits. Wrapping up, the conversation touches on self-improvement inspired by "Atomic Habits," emphasizing that personal growth and self-care are the bedrock of supporting others. With warmth and anticipation, we express our gratitude for your time and extend heartfelt holiday greetings as we look forward to future engagements.
00:00:01.544 --> 00:00:03.451 Welcome to the Successful Life Podcast.
00:00:03.451 --> 00:00:07.711 I'm your host, corey Barrier, and I'm here with our man, carl Ippoliti.
00:00:07.711 --> 00:00:11.025 I messed it up, didn't I Damn it?
00:00:11.025 --> 00:00:12.708 All right?
00:00:12.708 --> 00:00:17.658 Well, help me out here, ippoliti, ippoliti, god dang it.
00:00:17.658 --> 00:00:18.019 There you go.
00:00:18.019 --> 00:00:22.388 Well, don't feel bad, carl, I F up Smith sometimes.
00:00:25.542 --> 00:00:37.270 Yeah, it's a very common name from my homeland, yeah, which is where I'm a US citizen, but my family origin is obviously Italian.
00:00:37.270 --> 00:00:38.072 So there you go.
00:00:38.700 --> 00:00:39.664 Yeah, makes sense.
00:00:39.664 --> 00:00:41.209 How's it going, my man?
00:00:42.240 --> 00:00:43.164 You know how it's going.
00:00:43.164 --> 00:00:45.381 I'm supposed to ask you that how are you?
00:01:18.054 --> 00:01:21.885 Unbelievable, love it, and it's interesting that you mentioned that.
00:01:21.885 --> 00:01:30.965 And I and I do want you to tell everybody those that may not know who you are and what you do, but that downward inflection is important.
00:01:30.965 --> 00:01:50.733 When you're discussing anything, I don't care if it's with your wife or your child or a customer or a future customer, just to that perfect example unbelievable or unbelievable, it's the same exact word, but two different tonality.
00:01:50.733 --> 00:02:02.789 For sure, inflection means a lot 100%, 100%, carl, yeah, give us a quick rundown, a little bit about who you are and what you do and all that good stuff.
00:02:03.712 --> 00:02:08.163 Okay, bit about who you are and what you do and all that good stuff.
00:02:08.163 --> 00:02:14.854 Okay, so I've been in the HVAC industry for over 50 years and, corey, this is when you say, damn, you don't look that old.
00:02:14.854 --> 00:02:36.032 Yeah, 51 years, 52 years in the HVAC business from the contractor side and the last 33 years from distribution at Pierce Phelps or Wasco on distributor of carrier and Bryant and a lot of other things, and I'm the director of sales and marketing for the residential division.
00:02:36.032 --> 00:02:43.234 So I've seen a lot in this industry and I got a lot of experience and some stories.
00:02:44.704 --> 00:02:46.739 I bet you do, I bet you do, I bet you do.
00:02:46.739 --> 00:02:48.581 So I must ask.
00:02:48.581 --> 00:03:00.997 We are quickly approaching 2025, which is going to be a very different year for our HVAC contractors.
00:03:00.997 --> 00:03:07.881 Can you dive into a little bit about the refrigerant change and what either one?
00:03:07.881 --> 00:03:16.566 What can people expect and correct me if I'm wrong, but my research shows that prices are not going down.
00:03:16.566 --> 00:03:19.051 No, they're not.
00:03:22.141 --> 00:03:23.925 Let me just try to do this quickly.
00:03:23.925 --> 00:03:45.588 Back in 1997, there was the Montreal Protocol that said that the industry not just the HVAC industry but automobiles as well had to change the refrigerant in the systems because the refrigerant was harmful to the ozone and that was like using R22, that's a refrigerant.
00:03:45.588 --> 00:03:52.052 So the industry had to change to a non-ozone destroying refrigerant, which they did.
00:03:52.052 --> 00:03:55.847 It was R410 and Carrier trademarked it as Puron.
00:03:55.847 --> 00:04:07.401 The nice thing about it that transition was it was a gradual transition over a period of time, like from 1997 to 2020, before R22 was no longer allowed to be made.
00:04:07.401 --> 00:04:10.949 So that was good, that slow transition.
00:04:10.949 --> 00:04:14.903 There was still R22 available and it made it easy.
00:04:15.064 --> 00:04:17.189 This transition is a hard one.
00:04:17.189 --> 00:04:23.000 So we healed the ozone with the new refrigerant back then.
00:04:23.000 --> 00:04:29.161 So now what we did was we caused global warming because the ozone is now healed.
00:04:29.161 --> 00:04:38.665 So there's refrigerants the R410 refrigerant, which is what everybody uses, and the residential and commercial side of equipment.
00:04:38.665 --> 00:04:51.858 The industry came back with a minimum global warming potentiality that refrigerant can have and all kinds of science and formulas, and it has to be lower than 750.
00:04:52.079 --> 00:05:01.091 Effective January 1st, two different refrigerants have come out R32 and R454.
00:05:01.091 --> 00:05:12.086 R32 is being manufactured and made for one brand and they go by three names and the rest of the industry is going with R454.
00:05:12.086 --> 00:05:15.040 And at Cary and Bryant we're calling it Puron Advance.
00:05:15.040 --> 00:05:23.192 The global warming potentiality of the one is slightly below the 750.
00:05:23.192 --> 00:05:29.399 And the Puron Advance and the R454 is significantly lower than the 750.
00:05:29.399 --> 00:05:31.185 It's like around 450.
00:05:31.225 --> 00:05:43.612 It settles in at and this transition is a hard stop, like manufacturers can't make any more and if it's made before the end of this year it can still be installed.
00:05:43.612 --> 00:05:48.211 But manufacturing has to stop right now making it at the end of the year.
00:05:48.211 --> 00:05:53.771 So there's going to be a transition where homeowners are going to be thinking about what do I put in?
00:05:53.771 --> 00:05:58.788 R410 units that are made before the end of the year can still be installed.
00:05:58.788 --> 00:05:59.511 Those are going to work.
00:05:59.511 --> 00:06:01.125 There's going to be R410 available.
00:06:01.125 --> 00:06:08.600 The refrigerant Not sure of the cost, of what's going to happen to the cost of it when you have a leak.
00:06:08.600 --> 00:06:15.524 And then the R454 and the R32, you can bet your bottom dollar that the price is going to go up.
00:06:15.524 --> 00:06:25.384 So at some point probably around March, april, may you're going to see most distributors and most brands are going to be flipping the switch to the new refrigerant.
00:06:28.401 --> 00:06:29.101 That makes sense.
00:06:29.101 --> 00:06:32.269 I thank you for explaining that.
00:06:32.269 --> 00:06:33.413 I shouldn't say it makes sense.
00:06:33.413 --> 00:06:37.673 What kind of impact?
00:06:37.673 --> 00:06:49.314 Because there's got to be a massive training in developing technicians in a process like this.
00:06:49.314 --> 00:06:53.024 A lot of companies are running.
00:06:53.024 --> 00:06:56.673 A lot of companies don't even do training for whatever reason.
00:06:56.673 --> 00:07:06.509 But what happens to those guys and how much training are you seeing that's going to have to go into these technicians to get them up to speed with this?
00:07:08.201 --> 00:07:09.005 It's not a lot.
00:07:09.005 --> 00:07:30.857 This new refrigerant is I'm going to do the bunny ear thing here the quotes that this new refrigerant is slightly flammable and there needs to be sensors on the evaporator coils that would sense if any of that refrigerant has leaked into the house and it'll kill the system, turn it off.
00:07:30.857 --> 00:07:38.696 So there's sensors that need to be put in the coils.
00:07:38.696 --> 00:07:43.204 Storage is a little different now for contractors because of the slight flammability.
00:07:43.204 --> 00:07:49.103 So the irony of that whole thing is, you know, people are like oh, it's flammable.
00:07:49.103 --> 00:08:01.365 If you have a gas furnace it is flammable and it's a hell of a lot more flammable than the refrigerant, and same thing with LP gas and even oil, if you want to think about it.
00:08:01.365 --> 00:08:03.728 So there's going to be some training.
00:08:03.728 --> 00:08:05.269 There are going to be some storage issues.
00:08:05.269 --> 00:08:11.315 As far as installation, it's not that much of a big deal.
00:08:11.315 --> 00:08:15.744 You have to put the sensor in if it's not already installed.
00:08:15.744 --> 00:08:18.411 It's not that much of a big deal in my opinion, right.
00:08:19.800 --> 00:08:25.923 Yeah, I imagine just the talk track around it too is going to be important for technicians to be able to explain the difference in the two.
00:08:25.923 --> 00:08:41.903 Track around it too is going to be important for for technicians to be able to explain the difference in the two and why it's changing, and all that good stuff which also fall into that training category yeah, there's some new tool, new tools that'll be needed, but okay, it's refrigerant yeah, yeah, makes sense.
00:08:42.043 --> 00:08:47.168 All right, one of the things that I really wanted you to talk about today.
00:08:47.168 --> 00:08:54.576 I don't know if you mentioned this when we got, when we started, but you have you hold a Franklin Covey license.
00:08:54.576 --> 00:08:55.537 Did I say that right?
00:08:56.700 --> 00:09:06.131 I'm certified, instead of having highly effective people, I really it really helped save my life and turn my career around.
00:09:06.131 --> 00:09:15.610 I went from probably being a villain in my life to turning out to be a very good person, and the seven habits of highly effective people is what did that for me.
00:09:15.610 --> 00:09:26.051 And there's other courses that I've taken and there's other learning things I've done and books I've read about how to deal with different personality types.
00:09:26.051 --> 00:09:55.712 It's really important not only for you to understand your personality type, but to understand your family, your loved ones, your friends, the teammates around you for work, and also from the customer's point of view when you're selling to a customer, and also from the customer's point of view when you're selling to a customer, not only should you understand your personality, you need to be able to identify the person that you're having an interaction with, their personality type.
00:09:55.712 --> 00:10:08.548 That goes a long way because, when it comes down to it, especially in the HVAC or home services, we've all bought something from somebody that we didn't like, right.
00:10:08.548 --> 00:10:14.730 Yes, unfortunately, but we do like to buy from people we like right.
00:10:14.730 --> 00:10:16.506 We do like to buy from people we like.
00:10:16.506 --> 00:10:25.847 So there's no denying that, and there's a science behind seeing the way a personality is, and you've got to know your personality right.
00:10:25.847 --> 00:10:28.744 So the question is who are you?
00:10:28.744 --> 00:10:33.692 And in home sales, what is your customer like?
00:10:33.692 --> 00:10:35.299 What are they like?
00:10:35.299 --> 00:10:45.576 So years ago I read this book Versatile Selling by Wilson Learning, and I learned a lot from that book.
00:10:45.576 --> 00:10:49.370 People love to buy, right, they love to buy.
00:10:49.370 --> 00:10:49.649 They do.
00:10:49.649 --> 00:10:51.366 They just hate being sold.
00:10:51.366 --> 00:11:05.153 So this book did a study about 2 million people in 40 years and they did all kinds of research and they learned that one out of four people has a social style or a comfort zone or behavior.
00:11:05.153 --> 00:11:13.347 So what that means is roughly 25% of the people are like you and 75% of the people are not like you.
00:11:13.347 --> 00:11:14.932 And why.
00:11:14.932 --> 00:11:17.048 I'll ask you why you think that's important.
00:11:17.048 --> 00:11:20.668 You got to determine your style.
00:11:20.668 --> 00:11:24.328 You got to learn to read the other person's style.
00:11:24.328 --> 00:11:37.283 You need to adapt your style to the customer and then that creates trust, because the customer then feels comfortable and they're more apt to buy from you.
00:11:37.283 --> 00:11:41.592 So let's take it why this happens and how quickly it happens.
00:11:41.592 --> 00:11:43.865 It's all primitive man.
00:11:43.865 --> 00:11:47.903 It's all primitive Human beings are wired.
00:11:47.903 --> 00:11:50.989 We're wired to survive, right?
00:11:50.989 --> 00:11:53.712 We're wired to respond.
00:11:53.712 --> 00:11:57.630 It all goes back to the threat when we were facing that saber-toothed tiger.
00:11:57.630 --> 00:12:08.201 So the hypothalamus in the brain kicks in and it says I'm either going to fight you, I'm going to run from you, or I'm just going to freeze.
00:12:08.201 --> 00:12:12.028 So that's what's taking place.
00:12:12.028 --> 00:12:22.269 When you get into that survival mode, you say to yourself is this person a threat, a friend, are they like me, are they not like me?
00:12:22.269 --> 00:12:33.722 The minute that starts happening, art rate flutters, breathing gets a little heavier, adrenaline kicks in, right.
00:12:33.722 --> 00:12:36.067 So let's talk about it from the customer's point of view.
00:12:36.067 --> 00:12:47.986 So, customers, it's all about comfort and trust Right In the beginning of the sales process, or any relationship for that matter.
00:12:48.006 --> 00:12:49.794 They don't disclose too much in the beginning of the relationship, right, they just don't.
00:12:49.794 --> 00:12:58.924 And then what happens next is you can see their behavior when you're interacting with somebody, but you'll never really understand what they're feeling or thinking.
00:12:58.924 --> 00:13:02.614 So there's the next problem you have to face.
00:13:02.614 --> 00:13:05.179 Now this is where it gets really crazy.
00:13:05.179 --> 00:13:17.186 So there's a dimension of asserting yourself, and I'm going to call this the selling dimension and there's the other dimension of the responsive dimension, that's the buying dimension.
00:13:18.660 --> 00:13:22.450 In the beginning of a sales process, there's tension.
00:13:22.450 --> 00:13:27.361 There's tension Got to make sure you're doing the right purchase with the right person.
00:13:27.361 --> 00:13:32.010 So at the beginning of the sales call there is relationship tension.
00:14:47.222 --> 00:14:48.344 I'll answer that two ways.
00:14:48.344 --> 00:14:55.270 I used to be that way, but I have worked really hard to not do that.
00:14:56.111 --> 00:14:56.373 Okay.
00:14:56.373 --> 00:14:59.196 Do you use voice for inflection?
00:14:59.196 --> 00:15:01.962 I do.
00:15:01.962 --> 00:15:03.667 Do you make conditional statements?
00:15:05.149 --> 00:15:05.831 As an example.
00:15:05.831 --> 00:15:11.451 If this, I'll do that yes.
00:15:12.822 --> 00:15:17.948 I try not to Do you bleed back when you're talking with people.
00:15:19.431 --> 00:15:21.695 I do because I think it's more comforting.
00:15:22.720 --> 00:15:22.799 Okay.
00:15:22.799 --> 00:15:34.309 So if you were a selling mode, asserting yourself on someone, right now you're telling me that you're an analytical or an amiable.
00:15:34.309 --> 00:15:41.447 Okay, there's two personality types that you could be making uncomfortable because you're that type of person.
00:15:41.447 --> 00:15:44.181 Now let's ask another style Are you when you're asserting yourself and when you're that type of person?
00:15:44.181 --> 00:15:49.831 Now let's ask another style Are you, when you're asserting yourself and when you're selling?
00:15:49.831 --> 00:15:53.710 You speak quickly and firmly?
00:15:53.710 --> 00:15:56.164 I try not to.
00:15:56.164 --> 00:15:58.745 Okay, Do you interrupt others?
00:15:59.942 --> 00:16:01.528 I absolutely try not to do that.
00:16:03.240 --> 00:16:06.831 Do you often use your voice for emphasis, like inflection?
00:16:09.341 --> 00:16:09.861 I do.
00:16:12.586 --> 00:16:15.389 Do you lean forward when you're in the sales process?
00:16:16.130 --> 00:16:19.522 Sometimes, sometimes I lean forward, sometimes I lean back.
00:16:19.522 --> 00:16:21.605 It depends on what part of the sales process.
00:16:22.106 --> 00:16:23.089 Okay, that's fair.
00:16:23.089 --> 00:16:39.062 So if you're one of those types, you're a driver, expressive Okay, so the driver expressive when they're selling with their style that they sell and they're trying to sell to an analytical or an amiable, there's going to be uncomfort.
00:16:39.062 --> 00:16:48.552 If you're an analytical or an amiable seller and you're selling to somebody that happens to be a driver or an expressive, you're going to make them feel uncomfortable.
00:16:48.552 --> 00:17:00.875 So let's talk about how we see people when they're being sold or the response they give you.
00:17:00.875 --> 00:17:02.803 There's two types.
00:17:02.803 --> 00:17:07.481 There's the task response they give you.
00:17:07.481 --> 00:17:08.064 There's two types.
00:17:08.064 --> 00:17:08.464 There's the task.
00:17:08.464 --> 00:17:11.313 This means they're going to give you a task and it tells you what personality type they are.
00:17:11.313 --> 00:17:12.517 And then there's the people.
00:17:12.517 --> 00:17:15.604 So there's a task type and there's a people type.
00:17:18.489 --> 00:17:26.949 Realize that if you are one of these types and now I'm going to ask you, corey, you're now in the selling mode with me, right, raise your hand.
00:17:26.949 --> 00:17:31.657 If you are one of these types, and now I'm going to ask you, corey, you're now in the selling mode with me, right, raise your hand.
00:17:31.657 --> 00:17:39.949 If you're one of these, do you talk when someone's trying to sell you, corey?
00:17:39.949 --> 00:17:40.250 Do you ask for?
00:17:40.250 --> 00:17:41.814 Do you give that person a task or do you ask for a lot of facts.
00:17:41.814 --> 00:17:44.900 You're the buyer, I'm selling you and you're going to respond to me, are you?
00:17:44.920 --> 00:17:46.943 going to give me a task or are you looking for a lot of facts?
00:17:46.943 --> 00:17:48.867 I'm looking for more facts.
00:17:48.928 --> 00:17:52.354 I would say Do you use minimal body gestures to me?
00:17:52.354 --> 00:17:58.281 I'm selling you now.
00:18:00.326 --> 00:18:04.854 I would say minimum, because I don't want you to, I don't want you, I don't want to show my hand.
00:18:05.799 --> 00:18:12.530 Okay, do you show like a narrow range of emotions and feelings when someone's trying to sell you something?
00:18:13.413 --> 00:18:13.813 Narrow yes.
00:18:15.000 --> 00:18:18.790 Okay, and you probably use minimal facial expressions, right?
00:18:18.790 --> 00:18:20.346 Your face doesn't really reveal anything.
00:18:20.346 --> 00:18:22.460 I hope not Okay.
00:18:22.460 --> 00:18:23.141 Anything, I hope not OK.
00:18:23.141 --> 00:18:32.243 So if you're giving me that read and I'm selling you, you're telling me you're an analytical slash driver, one or the other.
00:18:32.243 --> 00:18:42.686 So if I recognize that I'm trying to assert myself on to you to buy something from me and I'm an amiable or I'm an expressive, I got to tone it down.
00:18:42.686 --> 00:18:43.267 I have to adapt my style.
00:18:43.267 --> 00:18:44.268 So I'm not amiable or I'm an expressive.
00:18:44.268 --> 00:18:44.847 I got to tone it down.
00:18:44.847 --> 00:18:47.108 I have to adapt my style so I'm not making you uncomfortable.
00:18:48.108 --> 00:18:54.010 So there's that task oriented person that's selling and then there's the task oriented person that's buying.
00:18:54.010 --> 00:18:55.651 So we're talking about the buyers now, right?
00:18:55.651 --> 00:18:57.291 So let's talk about the buyer.
00:18:57.291 --> 00:18:58.833 That's people oriented.
00:18:58.833 --> 00:19:06.734 They talk about other people a lot, right, oh, you know so and so, oh, you did the job down the street, right?
00:19:06.734 --> 00:19:32.832 So if you're in the buying mode and you use big body, expansive posturing and gesturing, like I am right now, and you show a broad range of feeling, or you use varied and a lot of facial expressions when you're being sold, I'm picking up on that you and I'm trying to sell you something and you're giving me that vibe.
00:19:33.940 --> 00:19:40.340 You're definitely an amiable or an expressive, so you got to figure out what style are you right?
00:19:40.540 --> 00:19:45.173 You got to figure out what style are you and then you got to figure out what style is the buyer.
00:19:45.173 --> 00:19:49.387 So let's get in the roots Ready.
00:19:49.387 --> 00:19:50.511 You told me who you were.
00:19:50.511 --> 00:19:54.604 I knew you were the first time you and I talked.
00:19:54.604 --> 00:19:59.513 So let's talk about who is an analytical.
00:19:59.513 --> 00:20:03.348 That's someone that focuses on the facts and logic.
00:20:03.348 --> 00:20:07.228 They act when there is a payoff and they know it.
00:20:07.228 --> 00:20:13.067 They don't commit too early, Right, they speak slow.
00:20:13.067 --> 00:20:16.394 They have an indifferent handshake.
00:20:16.394 --> 00:20:18.305 They ask a lot of questions.
00:20:18.305 --> 00:20:20.352 They lean backwards.
00:20:20.352 --> 00:20:27.167 They're serious, logical, systematic and thorough.
00:20:27.167 --> 00:20:30.933 That is 100% an analytical person.
00:20:30.933 --> 00:20:36.363 Like an engineer as an example.
00:20:36.363 --> 00:20:36.844 Correct, Okay Now.
00:20:36.844 --> 00:20:39.431 Do you recall the movie Full Metal Jacket?
00:20:39.431 --> 00:20:42.669 Oh yeah, Do you remember the drill sergeant?
00:20:43.380 --> 00:20:46.386 Yes 100 percent a driver.
00:20:47.810 --> 00:20:48.732 Without a doubt.
00:20:48.732 --> 00:21:01.454 They focus on results, they take charge, they make quick decisions, they like to be challenged, independent, candid, decisive, practical.
00:21:01.454 --> 00:21:07.441 They speak fast, they seek control of the call, they're opinionated and they're impatient.
00:21:07.441 --> 00:21:12.190 So if you're dealing with somebody like that on a sales call, be prepared.
00:21:12.190 --> 00:21:17.589 Here's why I'll give you an example the driver personality.
00:21:17.589 --> 00:21:25.968 If you see their driver personality, you better give them options, you better give them choices and you better give them more than three.
00:21:25.968 --> 00:21:29.676 So I have to be careful here.
00:21:29.676 --> 00:21:32.117 This is for demonstration purposes only.
00:21:32.117 --> 00:21:38.884 This is not to be seen as a gesture that I'm doing on a video podcast.
00:21:38.884 --> 00:21:43.079 The driver personality does not like to be sold.
00:21:43.079 --> 00:21:45.859 The driver personality likes to be the one making the decision.
00:21:45.859 --> 00:21:50.834 So generally in our industry, we show three choices.
00:21:51.654 --> 00:21:53.517 Three Good, better best.
00:21:54.018 --> 00:21:54.739 Good, better, best.
00:21:54.739 --> 00:21:57.682 So a driver who's one out of four buyers.
00:21:57.682 --> 00:22:03.965 If you do this to a driver personality one out of four and you do this to them, you've lost them.
00:22:03.965 --> 00:22:10.211 So now you're already behind the eight ball with trying to make a sale because you've already made somebody not like you and not realize you're doing it.
00:22:10.211 --> 00:22:18.353 So an HVAC or any home supply or service that we don't know what we're buying and there's three choices.
00:22:18.353 --> 00:22:25.250 We're going to probably throw out the least expensive and then we're probably going to throw out the most expensive because we don't know really what we're getting.
00:22:25.250 --> 00:22:26.873 So we're going to sell somewhere in the middle.
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